The Great Kingship Debate

Between (Mostly) DeeDee & Lady Elwing
From: Middle Earth Fanlists Forum

LADY ELWING
As for the King...it is true that Aragorn unlawfully claimed the throne. You see Aragorn is heir to the throne of Arnor. The Stewards were waiting for Anarion's heir see my posts in the other topic in this forum. Faramir did not want to become Ruling Steward but wanted a more peaceful life so he was happy to hand over rod and rule to the next person...no matter what his claim.

DEEDEE
But Aragorn wasn't just Isildur's heir... he was Elendil's heir. And the line of Anarion was dead. If the Stewards were truly waiting for a descendent of Anarion, wouldn't they have taken over the Kingship themselves long ago? Maybe I'm just confused. (probably so) I also don't think that Aragorn would have even thought of taking a throne that wasn't rightfully his. It just wasn't in his nature to do something like that. As it is, he is hesitant and sensitive about claiming his title. And it's important to note that the people proclaim him King, not he himself.

In a way, the divided kingdom is like Israel. The line of Jeroboam (Israel) died out, while the line of Rehoboam (Judah) survived. However, as a descendent of their common ancestor David, Jesus was King of the Jews (so to speak), not just King of Judah, and he united North and South. It's not exactly the same thing, I know, but Aragorn IS a Christ figure.

LADY ELWING
I agree that Aragorn was Elendil's heir but only very very distantly. My point is that the Hurinionath were also related to Elendil very very distantly being of the royal evellyn. You ask why the Stewards did not take over the kingship? Well Boromir asked the very same thing of Denethor:

"How many...years does needs it to make a steward
a king, if the king return's not?"

"Few years, maybe in other places of less royalty,
in Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."

The people of Gondor had just watched their Steward and heir die in the battles. Faramir was a great captain but he was younger and just was not suited to rule. When another heir of Numenor came and lead their armies naturally they wanted to declare him king! Who wouldn't? He had just saved their country. They would have done the same for a peasant!

DEEDEE
I think Faramir would have been a wonderful leader. He is wise, gentle, and merciful, yet also a brave warrior. He isn't afraid to speak the truth (to Denethor, to Eowyn), even if it might be painful. He knows when to take charge and when to step back. In short, I think I'd be quite happy living in Ithilien under his governance.

LADY ELWING
I always got the impression that Faramir was more interested in Peace in Gondor and a King to Rule over her - he didn't have a desire for power & lordship as Boromir did. He would never have contested Aragorn even though it was his duty to do so. I have no objection to Faramir shirking what he should have done - that is just his way. He is more of a kindly thoughtful person wheras Boromir was passionate and well didn't tend to think things out too much.

DEEDEE
Quote: "He didn't have a desire for power & lordship"
That's precisely why he would have been such a good leader.

LADY ELWING That is what showed that the blood of Numenor did not run purely through his veins. The true test of a Numenorian IS a desire for power and control - even over life itself. Gondor was Numenorian realm...had it been say...Rohan then yes Faramir would have been a wonderful ruler. But we are speaking of the pride and dignity of the Numenorian realm of Gondor! Not some petty kingship!

DEEDEE
True, but I don't think Tolkien intended the King of Gondor to be like a power-hungry dictator. Also, Aragorn was a Numenorean, and he by no means had a thirst for power and control -- just the opposite, actually. I think Tolkien was an advocate of the concept of the servant-king, not only because of the influence of his strong Christianity, but demonstrated through the fact that Aragorn is a healer and always, ALWAYS puts himself last. Theoden is also a King who puts himself last. This is the kind of kingship that Tolkien was advocating, and I think he set up Theoden in Rohan precisely to illustrate his point. Theoden is an ideal, loving, and wise ruler, not Denethor, who in the end has become corrupt and bitter. The only thing I can find to admire in Denethor is when he tells Boromir that the Stewards will NEVER take the throne until the King returns, even though thousands of years go by.

Aragorn, Eomer, and Faramir, in their respective kingdoms, will, through their self-sacrificing kind of leadership, bring the land at last to peace and prosperity. The only characters who thirst for power and control are Sauron and Saruman -- the EVIL characters. Tolkien sets the desire for power up as the ultimate evil, and that evil is brought down in the end. I truly don't think that Boromir desired that. He was too good at heart.

LADY ELWING
Yes but Aragorn was more in the tradition of Elendil, I have the feeling that Boromir was more of the true Numenorians that had attempted to reach Valinor. I don't pretend to know what Tolkien wanted but I do know what Gondor needed and deserved. A true king who loved power in order to serve his people as Boromir did.

"The men of Gondor will never give in,
but they may be beaten down."
"We need first a weapon"

You need a noble leader that understands
what it is to rule!

Actually Denethor and I think a lot alike.
I have a great and profound respect for him.

We are not talking about "good" and "bad" Numenorians we are speaking of true and pure-blooded versis those that went "soft". In fact there is a theory that Hurin was descended from the original King of Numenor who went to Middle Earth to defeat Sauron and ended up simply capturing him. That was I admit a bad idea.

The point is that Boromir would have made a loving passionate yet proud and noble ruler. You must admit that pride "Where there is true superiority of mind, pride will always be under good regulation."

DEEDEE
Not to shift into a P&P discussion (LOL), but Darcy
also made that statement before Lizzy changed him.

I don't think anyone's saying that Boromir would be
a bad ruler; I personally think he'd do a good job.